Kickstarter, Trademarks and Lies

Massimo BanziNovember 26th, 2012

Update:

We had to disable comments because the discussion was turning into a flame war.

Just a few clarifications: Arduino is not suing anybody. We never intended to do that in the slightest. We love Kickstarter and , as I said in the post, we think they are important to Makers. We are now in contact with Kickstarter to make sure that in the future the communication between us are more direct and clear. Our manufacturing partner in Italy has issues with some statements made in the Kickstarter campaign and they are getting in touch directly with the project creator to clear the situation.

—- original post —–

Kickstarter has undoubtedly changed the world by helping makers turn into an  industry to be reckoned with.
As with every brilliant invention the first prototypes always have a few issues that get fixed over time by trial and error. Figuring out a way to respond to issues and criticism quickly and effectively is the essence of growth and Kickstarter definitiely had done a lot but there is still a number of issues that are hard to deal with.

I want to show you an example of something that is happening to us right now.

A few weeks ago somebody launched a kickstarter for a project called smARtDUINO (notice the choice of lowercase/uppercase letters) that is supposed to be a better Arduino and all the rest. There is one of them every week so nothing new there.

The first issue that struck me was that right in the project title they claim to be the “former ARDUINO’s manufacturer”

Since I’ve never heard of this person I’ve emailed immediately the factory asking if they knew him.
Nobody had ever heard of him, then a long search started that ended with the realisation that he hired two factory workers who used to work for one of the many suppliers that our manufacturing partner uses.

So according to them, if I hire two factory workers from Ford I can claim I used to manufacture Ford cars…

When we got an email from an important worldwide reseller asking us if our manufacturing partner was behind this kickstarter, we really got worried that the confusion was going to create serious damages to us and decided to act.

We asked our lawyer in Italy to get in touch with this person to have some statements rectified while I got in touch with Kickstarter to see if they could act as a mediator in the dispute.

Based on the current available information, it seems that the company that owns the domain (Aldi Technology) doesn’t exist and the person who launched the kickstarter, who claims to be living in Italy (Mr. Dimitri Albino), actually moved to china years ago.

Italian speakers will find some old forum messages linking this person to some dubious activity.

Every week there is a kicstarter where, in a a way or another, somebody claims to be us… Either they call their project “Arduino” straight away or they ride the Arduino name in more clever ways. We usually email them but not all respond etc etc.

I wrote to kickstarter throught their public feedback form and emailed directly to somebody in marketing I had contact with in the past.

My point was that Kickstarter have to provide some kind of assistance when there are trademark violations or when somebody makes false statements.
Like many important websites have a clear and direct way to raise issues of trademark violations, Kickstarter should also make it easy to raise issues with them.

I got no reply from the marketing person and the next day I get this :
“Hi Massimo,

Thanks for writing in and bringing this to our attention. This is a matter that must be taken up directly with the project creator. You can contact them by clicking “Contact me” on the project page.

Best,
Kickstarter”

Well I don’t think Kickstarter can remove themselves from the picture, they are not a charity, they make money out of what they do. They should protect their users by better vetting who wants to be funded and by making it easier to raise issues about individual kicstarters.

What does the community think?

m

141 Responses to “Kickstarter, Trademarks and Lies”

  1. Alastair Leith Says:

    Hi Massimo

    For my 5cents I think that response form Kickstarter is appalling. They are pulling serious cash from the business and to not have a full time staffer dealing with these kinds of issues in a professional and prompt way (and by professional I mean legally informed). Seems like they have very low overheads and after amazon and bank charges are making handsome profits. Good on them for one of the best crowd-funding sites in existence but Arduino is not the only victim of Kickstarter scams and them washing there hands of it every time is less than inspiring.

  2. Alastair Leith Says:

    Hi Massimo

    For my 5cents I think that response from Kickstarter is appalling. They are pulling serious cash from the business and to not have a full time staffer dealing with these kinds of issues in a professional and prompt way (and by professional I mean legally informed) is very poor form.

    Seems like they have very low overheads and after Amazon and bank charges are making handsome profits. Good on them for one of the best crowd-funding sites in existence but Arduino is not the only victim of Kickstarter scams and them washing there hands of it every time is less than inspiring.

    EDIT typos/grammer

  3. funlw65 Says:

    then the Kikstarter is an accomplice
    Obviously, they don’t care and this is dangerous. Unfortunately, the truth and honesty are found less and less in the business world.

    The problem is that my opinion will not help you at all. However, I am a good listener :) .

  4. massimo Says:

    I want to make it clear that I love kicstarter and I think they are nice people who are probably as overworked as we are..
    What I’m asking for is a fast lane for companies that want to report Trademark violations and reliability issues with campaigns.
    If I have a problem with an item on Ebay I can register with them and send them a quick email. they usually review the item in a matter of hours.

  5. step21 Says:

    I understand your anger and intention, however despite earning money I don’t think kickstarter can provide what you want them to.
    Even if just concerning trademarks: Granted, in the case of Arduino you might say it is well known and in this case quite similar, so they would have known. But smiliar issues could happen with regard to other things/companies, that only extensive and constly research by lawyers could fully clarify. (likely more than kickstarter earn) Furthermore, the distinction between what is trademark infringement or not is often not clear, f.e. maybe you get annoyed if somebody says in their description that they ‘do something like arduino’ (with a different name) but which then would be no trademark infringement.
    And this is only trademarks. If Kickstarter would start to spend money on lawyers to pre-emptively check for trademark infringement, they would have to take responsibility for projects and check all the other things that could be wrong as well. This obviously does not work, so if this would be required, this would destroy them… seems to me that you are kind of in a similar position to that of Creatives/the music industry that complains when content is uploaded somewhere, they also say ‘well, they make money (throguh ads), so obviously they should be responsible’

  6. funlw65 Says:

    My grandmother said a word: tell me who accompany you, to tell you who you are

  7. Dimitri Albino Says:

    As I’ve wrote to Massimo, I will wait to be able to privately talk to him, before go public with our reply to the post.

    I only want to make clear that we never, I repeat, never claimed our product as better or substitute of Arduino. Anyone will take the time, and unfortunately Massimo didn’t, to read our documents will find out that we pay more than respect to Arduino.

    What our product do, better than any other, is just allow the user to create complex systems, without use wires or do soldering, that can include Arduino as well as many other technologies.

    People like the creator of iPhone understood it and supported us… I don’t think there is much more to say, by now.

    Dimitri Albino

  8. massimo Says:

    Mr Albino I have never received any private communication from you.

  9. Remio Says:

    The problem with a “fastlane reporting” is very well visualized with Youtube.

    Huge mediahouses have direct access to inofficial Youtube API’s and can block videos as they see fit. Most is of course squashing real pirates, but unfortunately there are plenty of innocent people who get their videos blocked despite it being created with their own original material.

    Trying to contact Youtube and fight these false claims is hard if near impossible because Google is a _technology_ company, not a customer service company.

    At least this was the situation for years, and I don’t know if it has improved. But I fear the same situation would occur if a fastlane reporting was available on Kickstarter as well.

    Larger companies could soon enough be flocking at Kickstarter, squashing anything that even hints of a similarity with their own products. An enthusiast making a rectangular communication device with rounded corners could soon have his dreams crushed.

    Or am I too dramatic?
    Time will tell, but unfortunately once it tells of a time as I speculated… it may very well be too late.

  10. dodgrile Says:

    …and yet, you’ve named your product to directly infer a relationship to Arduino? Not the smartest move now, is it.

  11. Dimitri Albino Says:

    Massimo, I’ve sent you a tweet with my e-maill address few hours ago.

  12. ferux Says:

    Do you realize how many products on the market have a name that is in some ways similar to “arduino”, right?? It’s common practice. They even have an explicit post on the FAQs stating that they are not restricting the “duino” suffix. Let’s try to be objective and see if the claims from this blogpost are well-founded or not, before gathering the pitchforks.

  13. helios Says:

    One thing is the suffix, and another is to claim they are the former manufacturer, in order to gain credibility.

  14. Alastair Leith Says:

    @ferux

    Pitchforks? Exaggeration maybe?! It’s a serious problem that Kickstarter always offers a “contact the owner” answer to any issues. Lack duty of care for hosting. I love the Kickstarter site but let’s not be naive about the problems.

  15. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @helios, invoices are that kind of documents that need to be careful, before post to public. This is why I’ve asked Massimo to talk privately, first. When he will authorize to disclose every document, that involve companies that he knows for sure, like BES, LM, SmartProject and so on, I will be happy do show that we are exactly what we wrote on the Kickstarter campaign, nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunately, I have the feeling that Massimo has been too busy to take the time to properly read the project on Kickstarter and he assumed things that, in fact, are quite different. Of course I don’t need to wait the approval from anybody to publish my company documents, like the government certificate of incorporation of ALDI TECHNOLOGY or the contract for the legal address registered for the domain. I just don’t want to waste too many posts to make all the stuff clear so I will wait and publish everything together, that’s easier.

  16. ferux Says:

    @helios

    I would agree if that was not the case, but then I ask myself what would have been the point in lying about that. I read the product page on kickstarter, their FAQs clearly state that their relations to Arduino were limited to outsourced production (“we have no official relations with Team Arduino. We just admire them for the great job they do.”). They even mention that thing about the two former workers, and it looks like Arduino was followed by a trademark symbol everywhere in the page. I say, let’s wait and see. It really sounds strange to me that someone would risk legal actions when arduino-related projects are gathering tons of money on kickstarter anyways.

    @alastair

    I was referring to the allegations about smartduino, not to kickstarter itself

  17. AK Says:

    Wanted to fund a kickstarter project which needed more than usual amount but I had liked the idea. I sent some questions to QS via email – their reply was so political/bureaucratic, I bolted.

  18. Alessandro Catteneo Says:

    “People like the creator of iPhone understood it and supported us… I don’t think there is much more to say, by now.”

    The one who is dead? Don’t take me wrong, but isn’t him the creator of a company which is constantly opening legal disputes on patent breaking?

    Perhaps saying that your neighbor found your idea interesting, would be a better thing to say.

    BTW, your FAQ ( http://smartduino.com/faq/are-you-the-creators-of-arduino/ ) is more interesting now ;)

  19. Trinton Azaleth Says:

    This is not the first complaint against Kickstarter, nor will it be the last. Kickstarter at this point is nothing more than a sort of advertising business for makers. They are in it for the money that they make off of popular advertisements. There are little to no guarantees on Kickstarter, and they’ve said as much themselves.

    My personal experience with Kickstarter was quite negative, and I am not surprised at all that their response to your problem was terse and essentially useless.

    My suggestion would be to contact the hosting service directly. You will need to first find the exact law that they are violating by misrepresenting a Kickstarter project as your own company, and then simply send details to the web host that is keeping that content online. Doing so will guarantee that the content goes down very quickly.

  20. Dj Hammers Says:

    On the kickstarter for this so called “smARtDUINO”, it says:

    “For years we manufactured the ARDUINO in Italy. Now we created a new Open System: modular, scalable, the world’s cheapest and smallest!”

    Albino, this is very ambiguous and makes it seem like you are the makers of Arduino, which you are not. If you wish to avoid legal action, I would suggest changing your wording.

  21. Gustav Says:

    “People like the creator of iPhone understood it and supported us”. ??? I would really like him to elaborate on this claim.

  22. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @Dj Hammers,

    my name is Dimitri and I use it in public, not hiding myself behind a nickname.

    Beside this, I have not only the pictures, left over materials and so on, but the invoices from my company for the works done, related to the manufacturing on Arduino.

    In my staff there are people that spent years of their life, doing nothing else than manufacturing Arduino. They are not only in our pictures. There are old articles from magazines that show them making Arduino.

    You can go to search the old pages of international magazines posted also on this site, with the pictures of the people in Italy working on Arduino, and then compare to the picture on our Kickstarter page, an see if you can’t find some common face.

    So why we shouldn’t say it, as it’s nothing else than true?

    At the second point, you clearly reported what we wrote: we created a new open system. We didn’t write that we created a new Arduino or whatever. And we clearly exposed our position, wrote (for the space allowed by Kickstarter that’s quite limited) what we did in the past for Arduino and also when.

    The fact here is that we only wrote the truth and we never claimed anything else than the truth but, unfortunately, Massimo didn’t have time to read everything, he didn’t check properly who and what did something in the past years and came out with a blog post full of mistakes.

    For example where he wrote that I claim to be living in Italy, when you can go on Kickstarter, read my bio, the project’s page, the updates and the comments and it’s very, very clear that I’ve wrote dozens of times that I spend most of my time in China.

    Dimitri

  23. Kevin Chiu Says:

    You should be able to sue Kickstarter for trademark infringement. Something similar happened to some friends:

    http://www.crowdsourcing.org/editorial/kickstarter-sued-over-projects-alleged-patent-infringement/21943

  24. bbronx Says:

    Dimitri,

    What you mean to say is irrelevant. What matters is what is in print. The wording of your kickstarter page is misleading. This opens you up to legal action. If you don’t want to get sued, for your own sake, improve your wording.

  25. Promises Says:

    Dimitri,

    The community WILL physically find you. When they do, a lawsuits what you’ll scream & beg for.

  26. Jon Moeller Says:

    Hi All,

    I recently launched a Kickstarter project as well, that ended about a month and a half ago: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/18182218/freesoc-and-freesoc-mini

    Dimitri, the creator of the smARtDUINO project got in touch with me a few weeks ago to collaborate on creating a smARtBUS adaptor for our platform.

    We’ve exchanged over 40 emails since then, and my impression is that he’s an earnest, upstanding man, who really cares a lot about the electronics community and making it easier and less expensive for people to do creative things.

    We had a discussion about Kickstarter in particular, and one of the things he mentioned to me in our conversation was that he felt his campaign placed too much emphasis on the “Arduinoness” of the project, and not enough emphasis on the true innovation, which is the smARtBUS interconnect system.

    We discussed the perils of successfully marketing a Kickstarter project, and said in retrospect, “If we communicate better the project, I have no idea were we can be now that it should be clear this is not just another Arduino.” (this was about a week ago, near the end of his campaign.)

    I think if you can honestly blame him for anything, it’s not effectively conveying the message of the product in an concise way. If his workers were indeed manufacturing Arduino in Italy, there’s nothing wrong with claiming it. I’ll admit that the claim might look deceptively grand at first glance, but my intuition tells me this has more to do with Dimitri’s English ability, rather than a malevolent attempt at hijacking the Arduino brand.

  27. Dimitri Albino Says:

    I think you guys didn’t get the point.

    1) it is true that we been involved in the manufacturing of Arduino in Italy, like it or not, it is.

    2) there is no trademark infringement anywhere, when we mentioned Arduino we made clear, especially using the TM sign, what need to make clear about the trademark and where we compared the different use of our product and an existing product available on the market, we covered the logo.

    What you didn’t get, because the assumption is that Arduino is the good and we are the bad, is that here we are talking about nothing.

    All what is stated in our pages, updates, comments and so on is totally true and, perhaps, our job bring Arduino to support even more products and platform.

    There is nothing wrong in what we did.

    Why don’t you try to read, everything, properly? Do you really need to believe only on one voice? Just because have more followers on twitter?

    I’m still waiting to find somebody that talk about the facts. Till now only @ferux looks like he spent some time to check what’s going on, really.

    I keep my opinion: Massimo unfortunately didn’t have time to check out, read and understand the whole project and he just got some, I’m sorry wrong, conclusion.

    Like the fact that our company doesn’t exist (I’ve posted on Kickstarter for our backers the copy of the government license and the contract for the legal address) or that I claim to be living in Italy, when I never did.

    This is just the clear evidence that it’s all a misunderstanding, and it’s a kind of pity that Massimo is avoiding to talk to me about this.

    Dimitri

  28. Brandon Myers Says:

    “All things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the truth.”

    Could the explanation simply be that english is not his first language, and his ability to communicate is causing confusion?

    I’m not defending either side. Simply giving an angle of clarity.

    @Dimitri Albino:
    1: Get native english speaking individual(s) to review your posts to the community. Maybe that would help in confusion. I have worked with many individuals where english is a second, or third, language. Therein i have recognized where confusion could ensue because of word choice, or order.
    2: Don’t rely on twitter for important communications. It is simply unreliable.
    3: Apologize for any confusion. No harm (yet) no foul. An honest mistake can be forgiven. (See #1 before posting)

  29. Mike C. Says:

    I just don’get it. Why is everybody mad (even threatening!) at Dimitri? I’m one of the backers on Kickstarter. I’ve been using Arduino for the last 2 years to prototype hardware projects and I think smARtDUINO could be a really nice improvement over the original Arduino. Remember that when it all started it was all about open source hardware? So why not take a step forward from the original design? Actually what I think is that mr. Banzi is acting very unfairly and that, being afraid to lose market share, is trying to slander competition. This is the real shame!

  30. Jeremy Says:

    From the smARtDUINO Kickstarter campaign page:
    —————————————–
    Who created smARtDUINO?

    We started our company over 15 years ago in the north of Italy, in a very small town. Our company used to be a contractor for the manufacturing of Arduino™ and, a couple of years ago, some important staff left the factory that manufactured the Arduino™ to join us. With this transition we gain a lot of experience in this field.
    —————————————–
    Are you Team Arduino?

    We tried to make it clear in the description, even if we actually didn’t write it directly. We are not Team Arduino and we are not directly related to the official Arduino project. We had relations with Arduino only as an outsourcing company, working for the contractor in charge of the manufacturing of Arduino. Two members of our team are former worker of the factory that, as we know until the middle of 2010 at least, was in charge of the manufacturing of the Arduino. Of course we know some of the founder of Arduino, because our job and because we live in the same neighborhood, but we have no official relations with Team Arduino. We just admire them for the great job they do.
    —————————————–

    Seems clear and straightforward to me. In fact, the Kickstarter campaign’s title and the campaign information shows the campaign is *NOT* just about another Arduino clone, but their “Open System” that has been created to connect everything together, the smARtBUS Open I/O. This is further demonstrated by integrating with TinyDuino, freeSoC, digispark, and Imp.

  31. Andy from Workshopshed Says:

    I did notice the “For years we manufactured the ARDUINO in Italy” statement at the top of the project but I’m not sure that influenced me too much, I did think it read a little strangely.

    Looking at the pictures and videos it was obvious that these things had actually been made and existed in at least a late beta form which was key as I did not want to invest in vapourware.

    I thought it was quite clear that these people did not have anything to do with the design of the Arduino, but did have some experience in manufacturing circuits and distribution which are where the real costs are in such projects.

  32. Prune Says:

    Dimitri, you may be (or hire) some people who worked (are working) on building some part of Arduino.
    That does not make you THE MANUFACTURER of the whole project.

    Just be clear on your wording and everything will be fine. There is nothing wrong about your project or kickstarter campain else than that.

    On the other problem, YES, kickstarter SHOULD have a legal way to contact them, with a decent respond timeframe.
    A kiskstarter infringing something is the one responsible, but if he does not reply or don’t want to take action, Kickstarter is. That is how the law goes regarding website hosting…

    Then, I wouldn’t recommend Kickstarter to automaticaly shut down project without getting in touch with both parties first…

  33. Erik Says:

    I have also backed the smARtDUINO project. Dimitri’s English may leave a lot to be desired, but having followed the progress for nearly a month, I’ve seen the project mature from seeming like a Lego block arduino clone with an oddly similar name into what they intended it to be: a means of bringing together the many branches of this community. The anger I’m seeing here is disgraceful. Can’t we just get back to making the world a more creative place?

  34. Erik Says:

    I have also backed the smARtDUINO project. Dimitri’s English may leave a lot to be desired, but having followed the progress for nearly a month, I’ve seen the project mature from seeming like a Lego block arduino clone with an oddly similar name into what they intended it to be: a means of bringing together the many branches of this community. The anger I’m seeing here is disgraceful. I really hope this blog post was a knee jerk reaction that wasn’t researched, and is followed by an apology for the misunderstanding from all parties involved.Can’t we just get back to making the world a more creative place?

  35. Paolo Lioy Says:

    Uy Uy!! … looks like Arduino guys are getting seriously nervous … LOL!!

    maybe you can start a termonuclear war as AAPL did against Samsung …

    then, once everybody realize you are wrong, you are out of the business …

    good luck Arduino

  36. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @Prune,

    we never stated we been the manufacturers of the whole Arduino. Actually, in the first version of the project’s page that we published at the beginning we even spent more words on what exactly our company did, related to the production of Arduino. But Kicstarter allows only 35.000 characters for the project description and we had to cut text to make space for the many products we offered.

    That’s why we moved some information in the FAQs.

    We just wanted to make clear why we claim to have experience on the specific field and, again, you can read the whole project’s page, all the updates and all my posts in the comments’ area and it will be more than clear our position on Arduino.

    About Kickstarter, using it from “behind” we discovered few things very important. They perform a review of the projects and give the OK, then you can change it as much as you want and is not required to pass the check again.

    This can be very dangerous, I believe, as people can take profit of this.

    But, I’m sorry, I still can’t accept that in a public blog like this, with thousands of followers around the world, Massimo wrote clearly my first and last name associated to wrong (should I say fake?) information.

    Nobody tried to get in touch with me, asking what’s going on. And no lawyers, as claimed, never got in touch with my company in Italy. The main reason is simply that there are no infringements in what we did, and will keep doing.

  37. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @Erik,

    I will be more than happy to write an apologize for what I did wrong, to be published as blog post on the official Arduino.

    Maybe together with the real and correct information on what I DIDN’T wrong and what is not true of the posting we are discussing.

    Dimitri

  38. Matt Says:

    One thing it would seem that some people are missing is that Trademark law is largely driven by use it or lose it; i.e. if you can’t be bothered to defend your Trademark you will lose it. The cost of losing its Trademark is way too high for the Arduino guys, it is also costly for the consumer because you would then have no confidence which Arduino gear is well made and which ones are knock offs. If you want to make something that is like an Arduino, good, great even, just pick another name for it. If you can’t pick a name for a new product you would seem to have a larger problem than your run of the mill product management problems.

  39. Frederic Detienne Says:

    It seems to me that Dimitri spent time (maybe too much) to give his team and himself credibility. Is this wrong ? no. Did he overdo it ? maybe. We hire people each day who claim expertise and a body of work in or around Linux and who are not Linus Torvalds.

    I was initially put off by the grandiloquent verbiage used on the Kickstarter page but I liked the FAQ clarification, the respect given to Arduino and all my research did not show anything wrong against smARtDUINO.

    Some statements on the web site may be a somewhat “over the top” but I did not read any claim nor even “felt” it was presented as a new, better or whatnot Arduino. Truth to be told, I _thought_ it was a new kind of Arduino due to my own ignorance but the Kickstarter page gave enough hints that made me research (I did NOT want a new Arduino) and this made the intent of the project very clear.

    I, like many, am new to and ignorant of electronic hardware – I am discovering. For this reason, it is true that confusion between Arduino and smARtDUINO is easy but
    – I think the Kickstarter page made it clear enough this is a bus system and they just offer adapted components
    – there is even a component to equip an Arduino with a smartbus
    – it is hard to make it clearer to the occasional tinkerer what smARtDUINO is/is-not
    – it is not a matter of name AT ALL but rather the complexity of the topic

    It is like knowing nothing about computers and being puzzled by the difference between GNOME and Linux. Or Ubuntu and Linux or Ubuntu and MythBuntu etc.

    I love Arduino but and I think I am going to love it even more with this new bus system.

    This bus is one of the things that Arduino needed and I simply hope that Massimo and Dimitri’s project teams will one day work together.

    Peace on earth.

  40. Rob Says:

    I am also a user of Arduino for over a year now and a backer of smARtDUINO. From the day i first stumbled upon this project i thought it had good potential. It was very clear to me (based on many of the things repeated above) that this was not an attempt to copy Arduino.

    I was so excited about the project that i reached out to Dimitri directly and have exchanged dozens if not more than a hundred correspondences with him. After a couple days he re-wrote the main kiskstarter page to add clarification. I then stepped in as a native English speaker and re-wrote his whole main page (not the updates). I did my best to translate his intents to better English even though i was just learning about the project. I offered, and may still in the future, provide these services to him as help.

    What i can say, is that Dimitri is trying to produce and innovation based on the “smartbus i/o”, he is not claiming to just make a better aruduino. While its true he has some arduino clone components, who doesnt these days. As cited many times above, he has been very clear to place TM where needed and to state he is NOT part of Team Arduino or officially affiliated.

    Since the start of the project he has been very active, very open, and very vocal with almost 30 updates to his project. He has forged half a dozen partnerships with other manufacturers and KS project founders.

    Please, before trying to disgrace this man, take the time to read everything, understand it and then post your educated comments. This is an open source community. The purpose is to work WITH each other and better the hardware we are working with. As such, all of Dimitri’s work is also open source (OSH) and will be contributing to this community. He is not trying to step on Arduino, hes trying to provide people a new way to interact and work with it, either through official Arduino boards or clones.

    Please read his information before posted an uneducated response here based on a potentially uniformed blog post. No offense to Massimo, i respect him greatly, however this is something he should have tried to take up directly with Dimitri before blasting him in public. i know first had that even as a “nobody” Dimitri is VERY responsive to his email. This could have been handled promptly and discretely. Then if Massimo found Dimitri to be in the wrong or uncooperative, he could have taken it public.

    I will not pretend to understand or comment on any legal components, I’m just saying there was no intended foul play, and i was able to understand that after thoroughly reading all of the presented information.

  41. Dimitri Albino Says:

    Because I live in China, as I’ve always and clearly wrote (yes, I’ve never claimed to be living in Italy), it’s one in the morning and I have a life and a family, so I will go to sleep.

    I only want to ask to everybody to keep the right tone. The low one.

    There is no meaning to accuse Massimo or Team Arduino for anything. I don’t see any reason to talk or tweet about Arduino like AAPL start war to… and so on.

    As I’ve wrote already, I just believe that Massimo have been too busy to have the time for read and understand our project and he wrote his blog post without know all the facts.

    This made him write something not true about my person, and of course this hurts because I respect everybody, especially the creators of Arduino, and I don’t see why others shouldn’t respect me.

    As I know he’s not the one that directly handle the production so maybe he can’t know all the facts, especially when we talk about few years ago.

    The fact that he’s not posting, and not sending me a message, is just the evidence that he’s busy and he can’t dedicate all the time to this kind of stuff.

    I hope this can be a lesson for everybody and, next time, will be better to just make sure that everybody knows what is talking about.

    Arduino always been a great Open Source project and smARtDUINO is just one of the latest new comer, that bring some new spice in the business. Even more business for Arduino, if you are able to think about it.

    I’m sure that when Massimo will have time to review all the things he will understand what he missed, doing his first evaluation. Nobody has the right, in my opinion, to blame him too much for being busy. He’s surely working to make your experience of tinkerer better, as well as I do all day.

    Dimitri

  42. Paolo Lioy Says:

    @Matt another thing you are probably missing is that..
    Trademarks usually works against consumers and innovation ..

    in any case they can only claim to rename it ..
    SmallDuino,BalDuino,Eporedio.. whatever…

    in essence Smart-Duino would keep de same ….

    :)

  43. massimo Says:

    I want to make it clear yet again that my blog post wanted to raise the issue of how one communicates with Kickstarter. This particular example was also relevant because Mr Albino is making incorrect claims right in the name he chose for the kickstarter.
    As I said, there are projects published every day that claim some kind of compatibility with Arduino and we don’t have a problem with it, even if the connection is , often, tenuous at best.

    @Dimitri Albino The CEO of our italian manufacturer will be in touch with you by email.

  44. Nilton Lessa Says:

    Hi,
    I am one of the backers of SmartDuino and several others open-hardware projects in Kickstarter. I am surprised and bit disappointed by the letter Mr Banzi wrote…I think Smartduino claims are very clear: they are not Arduino team, they admire Arduino work, they mention respect for all Arduino trademarks, etc. Mr Albino made a good work during all the Kickstarter campaign trying to clarify for the backers all the doubts posted by us. I, myself, have some, wrote it in public, received a public and honest answer, etc.
    By the end I evaluated, despite some doubts and concerns, that the concept of the project is innovative and it would deserve my support. Will it go right? I really hope so! Because the concept proposed by the project I can’t find, for example, in Arduino ecosystem.

    Maybe there is indeed some confusion here and there regarding the use of “Arduino” word but nothing to justify the harsh letter Mr Banzi wrote.

    And last but not least It’s very sad to listen more talk about “infringements”, “legal battle”, “the lawyers” in the very heart of open-hardware.But in the same time very promising all this conversation happening in an open and public way.

    With profound admiration for your work, Mr Banzi, I hope you can talk directly and respectfully to Mr Albino and clarify all the doubts that persists.
    And, who knows,could all this issue become a new collaboration case?

    Bests regards.

    Nilton Lessa
    PS: Sorry the English natives by my poor English.

  45. John Says:

    It seems like everyone thinks KS is being an asshole.

    Calm down for a second.

    Just because Arduino is well-known, it doesn’t give Arduino any right to ask Kickstarter to assist on this issue. The way I interpreted is that Arduino wanted to remove the problematic claims from the description. Trademark issue should be taken to the court if private settlement doesn’t work out. You don’t resolve this through Kickstarter. You don’t. If every single project starts having trademark issue, or patent issue (oh boy my product has rounded edge, and now Apple is sending a letter to Kickstarter). How many new PRs does the company need to hire?

    The way eBay works is eBay protects buyer and seller after payment is made. eBay’s policy is buyer and seller msut contact each other first and if one party doesn’t respond within a reasonable time frame, eBay will TRY to contact the other party. If no response, eBay will justify the claim.

    Here, Arduino is neither a seller nor a buyer. The organization is just trying to get the content changed. Well, if the owner refuses to change, Arduino should bring this to court and the court will order Kickstarter to terminate this project funding until a decision is made if seems appropriate.

    Kickstarter should not get involved in any trademark / patent drama. Unless it’s a clear fraud with lawful evidence, sure.

    If you really think it should be changed, and the owner doesn’t want you, bring it to the court.

  46. Javier Diaz Says:

    Here´s another KS backer … Sorry I haven´t read all the posts (life´s too short).
    #1 I agree the project name is not well chosen and I understand Arduino creators not being happy about all derivatives of the name being used everywhere. As such I understand Dimitri´s project as just one more example of dozens that do this. I understand most of the initial material as trying to establish that the people involved in the project have the needed experience and understand the community. Of course I could try to read much more if I was in a mean mood (or a paid lawyer).

    #2 I also agree that not reviewing with native speakers some of the materials can lead to some confusion (specially when you are writing stuff almost non-stop for the duration of the campaign. In this case, I would say the examples are in the thousands and I may not even have to leave this server to find some … My comment can serve as an example!

    # 3 I think the way the “smartduino” (I hate awkward capitalization) project is represented here is very partial and deals only with the possible abuse on a successful brand name. I think the project has a lot more than just someone trying to ride on the name …

    If the objective was just to complain about all the projects that somehow abuse on the name, it would be much more informative to put the long list …

  47. John Says:

    let me clarify because of typo.
    1. kickstarter should only encourage the owner and Arduino communicate. The company should not modify the content without any legal mandate.
    2. bring it to the court if you want to defend your trademark. Not through a public rant. Settle it in court.
    If owner doesn’t appear, with enough “evidences” with you already have, the judge will be happy to grant you the trademark and have kickstarter modify it for you.

  48. Stephen Says:

    Dimitri has offered explanations for the statements made and is offering Massimo documentation to backup his claims and an apology for anything wrong. It seems strange to me to make public accusations about Dimitri but then put things off onto a CEO. Perhaps the CEO should have been contacted in the first place?

    I’ve personally had contact with Dimitri and the excitement he feels about the project is thick enough to cut with a knife. This, compounded with the fact that his English is at times awkward, has lead to some difficulties. Dimitri really ought to bring someone onto his team who can proofread materials before they are made public. That is a suggestion I have already made to Dimitri via email.

    Those making threats might show some restraint as “the community” is indeed watching.

    Finally, the bus and implementation Dimitri and his team have created are great ideas, Open Source, and I believe they will help grow the community.

  49. Visual Micro Says:

    There are some good projects on kickstarter but there is also a lot of hype.

    I think Arduino is too big to be worrying about this one small instance, it will soon go away. Large partners are entitled to ask the question but that doesn’t mean they believed it :)

    ps: Where is my Due!

  50. Brett Says:

    I am an avid supporter of Arduino (I have sitting here 4 Due’s 2 Megas a Leonardo and an Uno) and I pledged the highest level to smartDUNIO, I contacted Dimitri via PM on kickstarter and received a very kind and immediate response. I have posted several times to the forums of this site and be amazed by the community that is created here. I have made money off my work with the Arduino system. I am in the debt of this truly amazing innovation. I too am a business owner that has considered repercussions people stealing my innovations and it’s good name (though it be MUCH smaller than anything Arduino possess). Please all consider these comments:

    @massimo:
    Thank you so much for creating this thing that I love so greatly, it has brought limitless joy to so many people, tinkering with flight and gardening and beer and everything! Please respond to people like @Promises that physically threaten Dimitri, please stand above such internet nonsense and don’t even let that sort of thing stand and tarnish the legitimacy of your requests, I am sure you’ve been busy on the phone trying to find proof to show that you aren’t over exaggerating with your remarks and feel/felt genuinely upset by this product, and you have some right to be concerned. I think we realize what’s at stake in the grand picture. I too, must say again, my emails with Dimitri were amazingly quick to respond and he answered a ridiculously trivial question as soon as he woke up. Please if you are too busy trying to find information to refute his claims, but an official Arduino staff member on these forums to keep everything civil or hire a PR person for short contract, I’m sure there are plenty of people desiring work there at the moment :( Also, I think the feeling of everyone that has worked in any capacity with Dimitri realizes that he is not attempting deceit or evil but instead chose his words less than perfectly in his zealousness to start something. Perhaps when you were young and first starting Arduino you did something trivial to you at the time that turned out to not have been the best choice, but meant nothing of it? Please keep that in mind when attempting to get justice.

    @Dimitri
    You seem to be awesome – thanks for your idea here that I think has potential. Please also consider putting a request for a volunteer for better English translation, I almost made the same offer as the person above myself to help clarify your words, and I am sorry I didn’t now as some of the comments were strange, but I realized as many people that you were either VERY busy (understandably so) or maybe English as a second/third language (which is still impressive, I only know one language!) or also hiring someone for as small a fee as possible to make sure your words are very well understood as they mean everything at this small point here. I hope very much that a poor choice of words doesn’t derail your work.

    Ideas:
    I agree, change the name to smartDUINO, that way people don’t have to see the AR and make it look like an off shoot company or something, it’s still really clever and seems to be withing the standards of the many other companies that do it.
    both of you: Just say the words “I’m sorry that I made a claim that is interpreted in a way that has caused great upset” or something like that, realize please, you are both humans that have had brilliant innovations and as humans can make mistakes in trying to get those ideas out. Maybe you can QUICKLY realize to work together to enhance arduino with these features – it’s a REALLY good idea and arduino itself could benefit immensely.

  51. Daniel from Sweden Says:

    I am a backer of the smart-duino project and I had to read more about this issue when I received the kickstarter update about the complaint.

    When reading this blog, It appears to me that Massimo are displeased that Dimitri is using the arduino trademark – it could be understood.

    But it appears to me that the allegations from Massimo that Dimitri is in fact scamming me and other kickstarter backers, are very serious and that Massimo have very little grounds for these statements. These allegations have certainly found a world-wide audience by being published by Massimo.

    Personally, I never took the smart-duino project for a arduino clone or replacement. I understood it as the toolkit and boards to easily put shields together on a new type of bus.

    I would be very happy to see the childishly spelled sMaRtDuINo name to be changed to “bus-y” or whatever your brand name will be. The name wasn’t what I signed up for with the kickstarter.

    I am using arduinos and I will continue to use arduinos, no matter what Dimitri’s project will be named. Honestly I think arduinos benefit from a larger ecosystem so don’t be too afraid of letting other people use the name in a good way.

    Massimo’s silence and comments in this thread looks like he has already engaged lawyers and is acting on the lawyer’s first advice to say nothing.

    I would be happier if Dimitri picks up the phone – or use skype,facetime,gtalk,smoke signals – and calls Massimo and talk to each other like men, real time, and resolve this situation.

    An easier way to connect stuff together benefits everyone, including the maker of the Arduino(tm).

  52. Dimitri Albino Says:

    Just to let everybody know, the CEO of the Italian company contacted me to send a copy of a letter that their lawyers wrote today, according to the date printed.

    In this letter they claim that the internet domanin smartduino.com and the name of our product is infringing their intellectual property.

    This is the way Massimo & C. are answering to my proposal of cool down.

    From Arduino’s webisite:

    “Note that while we don’t attempt to restrict uses of the “duino” suffix, its use causes the Italians on the team to cringe (apparently it sounds terrible); you might want to avoid it. ”

    http://arduino.cc/en/Main/FAQ

    I’m waiting to see the same treatment reserved to us for SeeedDUINO, NetDUINO, TinyDUINO and so on.

    You guys are sinking deeper and deeper.

    @Massimo, you didn’t make any example! You wrote clearly that I was claiming the false, something that I didn’t. This is defamation, also in the green Switzerland.

    Writing the false on my name and ruining my reputation doesn’t give you any kudos, sorry about that. Everybody can see this and is not honorable, for you and Arduino, to keep this way.

    Dimitri

  53. Andreas Thiel Says:

    I am a little confused … not because of the specific case but because of the general complaint. Why is it weird or bad that “Arduino” is used in many projects? I thought that automatically comes with creating open source hardware and is fair game!? How does that mean the project leaders “claim to be you”?

  54. Ekki Cau Says:

    Geez, and I though drama didn’t exist at this levels…

    I’m also a backer of the smartduino project, got to know Arduino™ from this kickstarter, was facinated by the way they made things easier for someone like me that’s not an electronics guru, and from my point of view, smartduino never looked as a treath to formal Arduino, but instead, my head flooded with ideas of what I could do integrating different technologies in my projects, my gut told me that I could trust smartduino project and that’s why I support it.

    I’m not an idiot, I investigated and way before the smartduino campaing was over, I knew pretty well who was who (Arduino and smartduino), smartduino is a new solution, and has the posibility to make other projects interact with eachother, and thats something formal Arduino doesn’t have.

    I’m not a brand fanatic, I support solutions, not brands. I don’t care if it’s Arduino smARtduino, Tynyduino, NOTduino, if it’s something that works and I like the will support it…. hehehe btw NOTduino wouldn’t be a bad alternative name in case Arduino gets more Appleish dramatic and sue XD

  55. Nilton Lessa Says:

    If Arduino (Massino or whatever) is really thinking to sue Dimitri concerning the use of the SUFIX “Duino” it’s really a sad, sad, sad day for open-hardware and for Arduino ecosystem.
    I really want to believe that it’s only a gross mistake and misunderstanding.

  56. Mike Krishnan Says:

    Oh, what drama. If you have an issue with capitalization of the letters, all you need to do is ask it to be changed to smartduino, instead of smARtDUINO. Unless the said project used ARDUINO as their name, your own licensing terms prevent you from taking any legal action. Nice way to stifle this guy. You know he doesn’t have money, so sue him and put him out of business.

    Arduino wasn’t the only prototyping board in the market. The reason why it is so widely used is because it is open source. If you want to behave like Apple, you should look at a different market.

  57. Paolo Lioy Says:

    @Dimitri .. so let’s call it smARTdueeno

    ;D

  58. Andrew Says:

    The kickstarter page is intentionally misleading that smartduino was an arduino manufacturer. Burying details like “well only two of us, but we were ‘important'”, where ‘important’ is obviously up for contention, down in the FAQ is intentionally misleading. Saying the primary contact lives in italy, when from his comments he lives in china, intentionally misleading. The capitalization goes beyond the usual -duino suffix, and is a separate and actionable item.

    Unlike the 3dsystems lawsuit, this case is much more on kickstarter’s behaviour. Kickstarter should be responsible for enjoining communication between a kickstarter’s organizer and a company with an obvious claim against them.

    I’ve no personal problem with smartduino, other than it seems to be less than it claims: it is no new bus technology, it is a pcb with connectors joining up all pins on arduino to all pins on each daughter board. After reading the intro text I was all excited for a smart pin negotiation system for inter-device communication.

  59. Stephen Says:

    @Andrew: Please reread the Kickstarter page. Smartduino does not claim to be a new bus technology. Smartduino seeks to be an open bus standard for connecting devices. That’s a bus. Not a new bus technology. There’s an obvious difference in terms which has eluded you. I understand your expectations were not met but don’t confuse personal expectations with reality.

  60. Dimitri Albino Says:

    Thanks to a member of my staff, that’s less tired than me (and I’m really tired of all this bull***) we made a kind of interesting discover.

    We received, as I’ve mentioned before, today a letter from a lawyer that claim our product abuse of some IP or trademark registration.

    The documents attached to the letter, that should prove our abuse of the brand have been printed the day October 29th 2012, the second day we started our Kickstarter campaign.

    Her you can see the screenshot of the letter we received:

    http://smartduino.com/arduinotmtrademark-intimated-us-to-close-the-domain-and-cancel-our-product/

    So we ask: if we really were against the law, or abusing of someone’s IP, why nobody contacted us on that very early day, to ask the shutdown of the project, or at least to change the words?

    If this it was known since the very first day we went public with our project, why wait for almost one month?

    The only answer we got till now is that we actually are not doing anything wrong!

    And now I really go to sleep, I’ve got sick tired.

    Dimitri

  61. allyn65 Says:

    Dimitri Albino, please stop shitting all over arduino’s dick. I hope your testicles get caught in a meat grinder and get fed to your workers.

  62. Fanjan Says:

    Wow, talk about a run away fire! What the hell people! I’m sorry but I am getting the distinct impressions of Arduino=Apple. Someone provides a solution, an extension to the capabilities of Arduino, and BAM! You are a fake and you will be sued and and and. I love the idea of a multi-core Arduino, so much so that I’ve looked into the Raspberry Pi just for more CPU power, but now there is a way to have a multi-core “Arduino” project – this is pretty much all I see with the smartDuino.

    I do think there is one HUGE mis-communication, so much so that both parties are talking past each other, and somehow, now there is a legal document. Really? A legal document? WHY!

    From what I understand of the smartDuino, it will never, and cant replace the Arduino, the Arduino has its place just like the Raspberry Pi, Panda Board etc. The smartDuino is a different tool for different problems and for other problems the good ole Adruino board will be the tool to use and the smartDuino wont work as a tool for that problem.

    Come on people, really, there is a saying in my mother tongue “julle is besig om a berg te maak van a molshoop” which translates and a description replaced to suitable English “you are making a mountain out of an ant heap”.

    I think this situation has now escalated where both parties, or at least Mr Banzi (because it sounds like Mr Albino is spending more time on this) himself has no choice but to make time and sort this issue out quickly before it reaches the point of no return and does more harm to the Open Source community at large. I see no issue here except misunderstanding and possible naming of a product as well as description of a product that could’ve been selected…uhm….”better” for the lack of a better way of saying it.

  63. Mike Krishnan Says:

    @Andrew : The primary contact didn’t say he lived in Italy. The page says : “We run our business in Italy but we also have our own office and staff in Shenzhen, China since 2006, and a branch in Orlando, Florida. ”

    Now running a business in Italy doesn’t equal claiming to live in Italy. I don’t understand the source of misunderstanding. The company is based in Italy. The primary contact lives in China.

  64. Paolo Lioy Says:

    @Dimitri ,

    the point here is , sm.ARTdueeno is really superior ,is really open
    and may be fuxXing cheaper than arDUINO …

    ( Arduino is a really expensive toy
    (for the same price you can get respectable PC Motherboard ))

    so once you’ll be up and running they would be seriously in trouble,
    (given that you don’t screw it up …
    which,BTW being you would be the only thing I would worry about)

    see .. is the same problem that AAPL ..
    they must sue because they can’t compete in an open market …

  65. Vegard Ryan Says:

    The smARtDUINO project on Kickstarter made me discover Arduino(TM) And the last couple of days I have been looking into what kind of products Arduino(TM) has to offer and do an order. Hello!? smARtDUINO is generating income for Arduino(TM)! But now I want to have a look at the clones instead.

  66. Mark Balliet Says:

    @Andrew It seems like you’ve got the communication, it seems like @Dimitri is willing to discuss things and work through the issues with you and rectify the situations. For all of us out here in the community that would benefit from these products, I ask that you both take a deep breath, and keep a civil discussion going about all of your concerns (it seems like you’re doing that, but hey, encouragement never hurts!)

    I will say, I backed the Kickstarter project, read all the material, and it was VERY clear to me that the team involved wasn’t the original designers of the Arduino. It was clear they were building a bus designed to make it easy to connect devices, and build working projects in a short time.

    I would like to see both products, the Arduino and SmartDuino survive, because I believe both are good for the maker community, and the fact that they can work together is outstanding, and gives us more freedom to build technology to enhance our lives.

    There’s nothing here that can’t be resolved by a good conversation, and at worst some adhesive stickers and an update to some HTML code.

  67. Mark Balliet Says:

    I meant @Massimo not @Andrew … not enough brain power on a Monday. Anyone make a board for that?

  68. Ekki Cau Says:

    Legal documents now, really? Ok I will just sit over here and enjoy my popcorn while you guys make a fool of yourselfs damaging your own brand image going all Appleduino

  69. saverio Says:

    @Massimo

    there are a lot of projects using Duino suffix, even on kickstarter. So, why massimo sues smartduino?

    May be it is a great project? So, massimo, spend your time on something more creative or the result is… Arduino DUE

  70. Jojojoget Says:

    I used to frequent Kickstarter as a backer. I’ve spent quite a bit on funding several projects. There are some good ones and unfortunately some bad ones where projects either took too long to complete or have not materialized even after months being funded.

    And my experience with Kickstarter customer service has never been a pleasant one especially when it comes to asking help on those bad projects as mentioned above. Often they would take a while to respond back and when they do they’re of not of much help. Instead of having issues with just those bad project makers, I now have to deal with that and the bad customer service from Kickstarter.

    I know that once I backed a project, I put myself in a situation that the project may not materialize and my money would be gone just like that. But Kickstarter has to come up with a policy to cover backers in cases where projects turn to scams. Unfortunately this is not happening anytime soon. Instead we get more projects that require several thousand dollars in funding getting listed without Kickstarter doing a thorough check on them if these projects could come to fruition. To them the more amount of cash a project requires, the more they could earn and that is all that matters to them.

    I’ve since stopped using Kickstarter altogether. It’s sad because it’s an awesome concept of a crowd funding website with some good, interesting projects out there. But I just couldn’t see myself backing a website that does not have any intention of helping out its users in need of one.

  71. thorbear Says:

    So this turned out to be a frivolous legal ambush planned ever since the very start of the kickstarter (Oct 29). A blatant attempt to smear and put out of business what Appleduino seems to see as a dangerous competitor or somesuch paranoid notion.

    Everyone should think very carefully about the very real threat Appleduino poses to the Open Source movement with their despicable behaviour.

  72. David Says:

    By what legal mechanism do you think that a third party (Kickstarter) is responsible for defending your trademark? Suppose that the use does not infringe upon your trademark, would not the third party be responsible for any action on your behalf? Are you willing to assume responsibility for actions the third party makes on your behalf?

  73. saverio Says:

    Arduino has no chance of winning the case, especially in the italian law system.
    This is just an attemps to scare a smart competitor…

    apple docet…

  74. Dennis Brown Says:

    I discovered Arduino(TM) through the smARtDUINO project on Kickstarter. At no time did I confuse one with the other. I would prefer the product was named smartDuino, smartDUINO, etc. It is just hard to pronounce mixed capitals that do not break on a word boundary. There is no way I could confuse Arduino(TM) with smARtDUINO. I would not even have considered the Arduino community of products if it were not for the ease of connectivity brought through the smARtDUINO project.

    I think this misunderstanding is childish and is wasting a lot of peoples time and energy. REAL men will discuss their differences directly. Courts, lawers, etc., are last resort measures when no direct resolution is possible, or for cowards to hide behind from the start. Of course a lawyer will disagree — it cuts deep into their income. If Arduino wants to waste money on lawyers instead of products, then they lose respect in my eyes.

  75. Djam Says:

    This is a typical “Lose-Lose” situation.

    Massimo started the day picking on the Kickstarter, ended up suing smartduino. Reputation damaged, really bad move.

    Dimitri:
    – please get a hand from a native English speaker
    – your KS page title says “smARtDUINO: Open System by former ARDUINO’s manufacturer by Dimitri Albino”, which might be true, but sounds misleading. I can see why Massimo gone wild.

    shake hands, correct the spelling/letter cases and continue working on an awesome stuff.

  76. Ekki Cau Says:

    @Jojojoget, kickstarter page states perfectly that you pledge at your own risk, and that they serve as a platform for funding projects, it’s trust that powers this thing, and would be very impractical if kickstarted starts taking legal action for every copyright dispute that accours there, it’s more or less like blaming Paypal for not getting your goods after paying someone.

    And actually, kickstarter does a little more filtering than other sites like indiegogo do, I been on both and let me say that indiegogo is filled with poor quality project (not saying that all of them are), and have to browse a lot of pages with “spam projects” to get to a good one, there’s usually more quality content in kickstarter, only problem is that only US and UK, meanig that you have to live there to open a project.

  77. Philosofuino Says:

    Allow me to propose reading this book: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_Mind,_Beginner's_Mind

    Then answer this question: “What is this whole discussion all about?”

    btw. “open” or “closed” are just different sides of ONE coin.

  78. Frank Says:

    I’ve got to admit, when I first read the title of the Kickstarter project, I thought some of the Arduino guys were involved. The title is, “smARtDUINO: Open System by former ARDUINO’s manufacturer”. However after a quick read of the main project text, it definitely explains that this is not the case. But I can see how Massimo would not like this title.

    The Arduino website has a pretty good explanation of the do’s and don’ts around the Arduino trademark. That the -Duino suffix is fine, as is saying that a board is “Arduino compatible”. However the use of “Arduino” has certain restrictions. http://arduino.cc/en/Main/FAQ

    In looking directly at the blog link that Dimitri shows, there is a picture that shows a board called the “SmARtHOST Arduino(TM)”. It’s called this in both the wording on the page, and on the board itself. This clearly violates the first item on the list of “Not okay” uses of their trademark. I’m not sure how Dimitri can claim this is not the case.

    I don’t really agree with the comparisons of Arduino and Apple, and I completely understand the defense of the Arduino trademark, and think Massimo is correct in this case. There are so many blatant Arduino copies that completely misuse the trademark, that the Arduino team really does need to defend it, or else it will be tarnished by inferior copies that people mistake for the real thing.

    That being said that, I hope there is a better resolution to this than a lawsuit, such as with a simple name change to this board and rewording on Kickstarter.

  79. Wow! So so sad.... Says:

    I can see where @Massimo and the Arduino team are coming from and how they want to protect their IP.

    After reviewing the facts and having read every update @Dimitri has sent, my conclusion on this matter is:

    The smARtDUINO name is too close to SmartProjects, The Official Italian Manufacturer of the Arduino, and of course the Arduino name. My “guess” is the letter is from the CEO and lawyers of Smart Projects or a combination. Only a guess.

    To @Massimo and friends: If you had a problem on Oct. 29, why wait until Nov. 26th to bring this issue to the Arduino community? Didnt you want to warn those in the Arduino community prior to the end date and before funding reached such a high level? It doesnt make sense unless you were after the $$$ from the get go.

    I followed quite a few projects on KS and no one has had as much passion as Dimitri. A fraud doesn’t work so hard to partner with other Project Creators, actually create more products, and than offer the first for free. I think if you actually tried to work with Dimitri he would put as much passion into it as he has his project.

    A simple solution: Just ask them to change the name. Please remember the KS backers of smARtDUINO, are also within the Arduino community.

    Apologies are in order from both sides.

    Don’t take it out on your own Arduino Community because your upset with KS……..

    @Ekki pass the popcorn please :-)

  80. Frederic Detienne Says:

    @dimitri: Be proud of your project. Don’t get distressed by this type of behavior — it is quite common anyway. Wait for what the lawyers are going to tell you and change that name if necessary. Keep cool, take some sleep and focus on your business. The name recently started to stink anyway.

    @massimo: fighting to death for a name ? looks like this was your single idea…

  81. Jacob Christ Says:

    I saw this project and had no problem realizing that smARtDUINO was not Arduino. Maybe I’m more clued in than most and I can see how a distributor might be confused think they are one and the same.

    From the tone of the Massimo’s letter from it sounds like he should read The Clue Train Manifesto.

    http://www.cluetrain.com/

    Jacob

  82. jac Says:

    @Dimitri Albino:

    Rant speek: Hey, I have a friend who used to work at Foxconn. If you hire him you could boast to be “the makers of iPhone”! (don’t forget to add some small print on how much you respect Steve Jobs, and so on, somewhere far down the page)

    Constructive speek: your Kickstarter page is misleading, plain and simple. Just back down and focus on product quality instead.

  83. thorbear Says:

    Why should he back down when there is blatant evidence that this ambush was planned all along by Appleduino?

  84. Paolo Lioy Says:

    Oh! sh1t!! … so I can’t name my next child ‘Arduino’ ?? .. LOL!!

    and .. is ‘Arduino’ a creative name ? ..
    from somebody coming from Ivrea ??
    really ???? LOL!!!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduin_of_Ivrea

  85. Evaristo Ramos, Jr. Says:

    These two creators need to stop wasting energy and time bickering over this.

    @Arduino you released everything as open source, so sorry someone is potentially going to make some money off of it, stop complaining and make a better product or join up with him.

    @Dimitri take the high road and make your product the best that it can be, your deeds if true will be shown at the end.

    This world needs people to stop arguing over slights and work better together which I though was the entire point of open source, obviously some of you creators have forgotten that and now we all may suffer because of it, thanks for your bickering and not progressing.

    Hanging my head in shame as a fellow human.

    Roo

  86. Alberto Fabiano Says:

    My 0.002 bitcoins:

    In time, the trademark is very important in the “Open Source” and both concepts can coexist peacefully, but the rules must be clear, after the deal is not expensive.

    @Banzi, I suggest you do you make one trademark guideline, like the OSI:

    http://opensource.org/trademark-guidelines

  87. Ekki Cau Says:

    I just want to add, I don’t have a problem using both technologies, I already ordered an UNO and a Leonardo a few days before that kickstarter ended.

    What upsets me is not the actual naming dispute, that could be solved easily if talked properly, what does upset me is Mr. Massimo comming around and making all those bad comments publicly without talking things over with Dimitri first in private, making it seem like “Oh noes competition, were gonna loose moneys….”

    I think Massimo owns Dimitri a formal apologie first for talking s**** about him before really investigating, and then they can talk thinks over get to good terms.

    And another thing, if this get to the point that Dimitri in fact has to change the name of the product, me as a user, I don’t care if it’s renamed to Quesadillaboarduino, I won’t stop suporting the project just because you took out the a-r-d-u-i-n-o out of it

  88. Vimes Says:

    I fully support companies AS LONG as they follow the rules of open hardware and open source software and create 3rd party boards in accordance with all the relevant stuff.

    I think when a clone board comes around like this and clearly and loudly declares “HEY, WE ARE BETTER THEN ARDUINO”, that instantly sets alarm bells off. Some projects use such phrases as “with enhanced xxxxxx” when adding some features that the official board does not have or has set up in a different way which is fine IMO as they are still not saying they are better than Arduino but just that they have taken the design and squeezed a little extra out.

    This Kickstarter project seems to be a real project (I have no doupt they WOULD of actually produced a working project) but has achieved its goals and donations by using false connections and other fraudulent behaviour to get big producers on board thinking it has the support from Arduino (The real/original one)

    I believe that any moneys paid so far be put on hold while the authorities investigate and speak to the Management at Arduino, ARtDUINO, Kickstarter and other parties like Dangerous Prototypes and Electric Imp who ArtDUINO claim to have on board as major backers.
    If all turns out to be true and real and no fraud has taken place then let them continue but obviously within the boundaries of your legal status.
    If it is found that this Kick starter project was founded on fraud, fake relationships/sponsors and breaches of Trademark and Copyright law then ALL money should be returned to the donors immediately. If they fail to comply then it needs to be pursued through legal channels.
    If it has been looked into by a 3rd party and comes out that some lies were told but no laws broken then they should be allowed to re-start the kickstarter from the beginning as this current one what ever happens now is null and void since evidence is already emerged that alot of what donors were told was false information.
    If they can then get their second kickstarter (if they will have them back) campaign off the ground and supported within the legal terms and without the BS then good for them, but doing it the way they have done it this time is not acceptable and people deserve to get reimbursed and the project scrapped immediately!

    Thank You to the team at Arduino (you know, the real company that make those smart little electronics prototype boards and are good enough to share their magic so long as the 3rd party stays inside some fairly loose rules…) for getting on to this and outing a fraud who unless refunds all donors, will likely be heading for some expensive legal costs – Maybe he can start a kickstarter for that too!

  89. Vimes Says:

    To those saying things like “Stop bickering like children” and playing it down as just some minor trademark/copywrite issue, it really isn’t. Its about an individual who appears to of used alot of fraudulent statements and such to gain the support of other companies and then of course the end user.

    To start a project out like this will almost certainly kill it dead in the water before anything goes into production. To build a project with peoples money up front, you need to be transparent and true, this kickstarter project now appears to have been built on lies and fraud from day 1.

    Refund all investors, let the relevant parties talk or bring legal proceedings and then when/if cleared create the same campaign, this time without the added fraud and see how it goes when everyone is telling the truth.

    Arduino are one of the most trusted and popular names in alot of fields from Engineering to Art and from Heavy machinery to home automation. If Arduino say this ARtUINO is a fraudulent and illegal project then I believe them over some guy who doesn’t even seem to know where he lives and has been unable to back alot of his claims up so far.

  90. Fabio Varesano Says:

    There have been always two companies involved in making Arduino (from day 0 of the project I guess):
    * Smart Projects http://www.smartprojects.it/
    * Arduino itself

    Now, someone goes on Kickstarter and call his project smart-duino, basically fusing the names of the companies above and claiming to be the “former Arduino Manufacturer” (something which is not true).

    How can you people think this is acceptable?

  91. thorbear Says:

    How special, Appleduino has it’s own variant of Apple fanbois, who just like the real thing thinks that their worshipped gods can do no wrong.

  92. Vimes Says:

    For the record once more…
    I do NOT think this project was fake.
    I believe that it has crossed legal boundaries and used fraudulent claims to gain extra momentum behind the project.
    I have no doubt that this project would of/will be released (Providing the big backers don’t drop out now) and it is a great idea.
    Its a shame that the project lead didn’t contact Arduino management in the beginning to check their guidelines on using the various parts of the Arduino brand and HW/SW.
    I think that this project will now unfortunately tank as its taking so many hits and more and more lies and false information are being outed. If they had just spoken to the guys at Arduino before launching the KS funding then all this would never of happened and a decent looking Arduino based modular system would now be ready to go into production.
    The other thing that bothers me is people slating Arduino for not stepping in earlier… Most likely they were surveying the situation and started putting a legal team on it once they saw that trademarks and such were being broken and fraudulent information about a non existing ex-employee as well as other similar accused BS.
    Arduino are an amazing company and the fact that they actively promote the use and manufacture of new boards based on their board and working with the Arduino GUI/ISP shows how committed they are to sharing their advances, for them to speak out about a product like this makes it clear something is not right here and im pretty sure we don’t know all the facts yet either…

  93. Skip Tabor Says:

    This whole thing is really a bummer. I backed the Smartduino project, it looks like a great modular system for playing and prototyping. I think that perhaps Dimitri’s English could have made things confusing to some, but you would have to be pretty dim to think that this project was one being undertaken by the Arduino team. You don’t even have to read to figure that out, just watch the videos. It’s pretty clear. Really, I think Massimo is being a bit childish with this blog post. Clearly Massimo is huge in this scene and he should realize what kind effect a blog post like the can have on a project such as Dimitri’s. Massimo has the responsibility to do his homework before posting something like this, and he clearly didn’t in this case. There are alot of crappy Arduino clones out there that certainly hurt the Arduino name and also take money out of Massimos pocket, but Smartduino isn’t one of them.

  94. Paolo Lioy Says:

    @thorbear .. it looks like

    most of Arduino fan Boys are just as smart as Apple fan Boys are ..

    (reTARdEDduinos)

  95. Ekki Cau Says:

    @Vimes, “but has achieved its goals and donations by using false connections and other fraudulent behaviour to get big producers on board thinking it has the support from Arduino (The real/original one)” WRONG, you should read and investigate more my friend before posting, as I stated earlier, knew by wich one was wich before I pledged and I bet all the other backers also knew that.

    And well…..youre idea…. let’s say in a utopian parallel universe that smartduino changes it’s name to pancakeduino and does another kickstarter, I bet it would get more money this time XD

  96. Stephen Says:

    @Vimes: In light of your comments it is interesting to note that not a single Smartduino backer who posted here today has said they were mislead. Backers of the project, who decided to lay money out, are more likely to have carefully read the materials than armchair critics. Your posting is less thought out than Massimo’s.

  97. jacques Says:

    Anyway, what is Arduino ?
    A bundle of software and libraries,
    the hardware is just an Atmel atmega.
    Yes, it is also a brand, but from the developer and user point of view, who cares about the name ?

  98. thorbear Says:

    @Paolo
    Yeah, reading comprehension doesn’t seem to be overly common among them.
    .
    Neither is acknowledging the fact that this was planned by Appleduino ever since Oct 29, the day after the kickstarter started.
    .
    http://smartduino.com/arduinotmtrademark-intimated-us-to-close-the-domain-and-cancel-our-product/

  99. Paolo Lioy Says:

    @thorbear

    do you know what’s really funny is that I can’t find Arduino registered as ™ …

    does the aTEAM really own it ?

    in fact the (™) symbol which ,supposedly is quite expensive, doesn’t appear at all neither in the web nor in the board and even not in the package of the board

    ironically does it appear just in the ”violating” board of Dimitri …

    If I had payed for such little expensive fucking unicode char I would put it everywhere

    Am I wrong ?

  100. Paolo Lioy Says:

    Ok … found …

    what’s registered are just the LOGOs (both)

    http://www.trademarkia.com/trademark-by-design-search.aspx?sw=arduino

  101. Dennis Brown Says:

    So far, it seems that Arduino does not have a leg to stand on for smartDuino — however you want to capitalize it. That means that the domain name is also not in violation. The use of “smARtHOST Arduino(TM)” for a board name likely steps over the boundary and should be changed to something like smartHOST “for” Arduino(TM).

    This is what it really boils down to. Obviously, if Arduino meant no underhanded or greedy intent to steal the funds of the Arduino community who backed this Kickstarter project, then they would not have timed their “revelation” of this slight at the point to cause the most harm, and after the Kickstarter campaign was ended — so Dimitri would have our funds for Arduino to steal. I doubt there would be much left for Dimitri after he fulfilled all the rewards — not worth going after, and before the Kickstarter ended, he did not have any money to go after either. SHAMEFUL GREED!!!

    It is pretty disgusting to me. If Arduino does not start acting like a responsible community citizen soon, I am afraid that they will loose 1000 members.

    What do I mean by responsible? Simple, when you see your brother making a mistake, do you inform him of it and ask him to change, or do you set a trap for him and hope he falls into it so you can beat him up and steal his money — or worse, someone else’s money.

  102. Dennis Brown Says:

    Just to add, from the Arduino FAQ:”

    Not okay:
    Arduino Xxxxxx
    Xxxxxx Arduino
    Arduino Compatible Xxxxxx – use “Xxxxxx (Arduino-Compatible)” instead

    Okay:
    Xxxxxx for Arduino – products that work with official Arduino boards (e.g. shields or kits)
    Xxxxxx (Arduino-Compatible) – variations and clones which are software and hardware compatible

    Note that while we don’t attempt to restrict uses of the “duino” suffix, its use causes the Italians on the team to cringe (apparently it sounds terrible); you might want to avoid it. (It’s also trademarked by a Hungarian company.)”

    This last sentence would indicate that a whole lot of boards might be infringing on some Hungarian TM. If true, there is going to be a whole lot of name changing going on.

  103. Dimitri Albino Says:

    There are few things that are coming out here, and not only here.

    Somebody is even starting to doubt our good faith and suppose that we are not going to make the products or ship them, on time or any time.

    This is the clear evidence of how much misleading ideas this post generated, stating the false.

    Here we are talking about someone, Massimo Banzi from Team Arduino, that wrote on the public blog of Arduino, here, which have for sure hundreds of thousands followers, if not more, that a company doesn’t exist and that another person, stated with first and last name, was claiming something that he didn’t, never.

    Reading the Kickstarter page, including the bio, the faqs, the comments and the huge quantity of updates, anyone can see very easily that this person always made very clear he’s living in China.

    The registration certificate went public so, the company exists and this is proven as well. Nobody heard about any apologize for the false statements.

    So, why publish something so unfaithful?

    When then it came out that the problem was on the table since October 29th, few hours after the launch of the Kickstarter project, the question become: why need to wait almost one month before complain?

    The only think Massimo Banzi tried to do, here and in other forums, was to try to change the topic and move it on Kickstarter. NO WAY! Here he wrote the false about one person and one company and made people believe they have been victim of a fraud! Change the topic is the worst bull**** ever!

    The question is: is it right that the owner of a so popular blog write false statements, but when become clear to everybody that he is wrong, he try to change topic, instead issue the owed apologize?

    This remember me when Steve Jobs (R.I.P.) is supposed he stated: “there is nothing wrong with iPhone 4, they are holding it not properly”.

    In a very “Apple” style, lawyers appeared.

    They are supported but an international law firm that has been founded in 1877, according to the legal document we received, and count over 50 associates. Is it possible that, as the documents show very clear, the “problem” was known since the first day of Kickstarter campaign but no one of these over 50 professionals with so long history suggested to ask us to stop the campaign, if something was wrong?

    Do anybody knows how far is the Italian office of Arduino from our Italian office? Less than 2.000 meters. You can walk there in less than half an hour. Walk! And someone in that office, that used to live next door to someone of our office, know very well more than one of our team. Everything happen in a small village. So, again, why not just take the car, drive two minutes, and go to ask: can you please stop that? We actually doesn’t like it that much.

    It was really necessary wait for one month and then write on the blog some false information, trow some dirt on others name?

    If we can’t claim that we have been involved in the manufacture of Arduino, why there are press news from Team Arduino that proudly show a production line, claimed to be owned by their Italian branch, where the persons working are in the picture published by us on Kickstarter? So, they work for us now, in that old pictures they were working for who?

    Massimo Banzi is for sure member of a group of very clever peoples that created such a good thing like Arduino, but he doesn’t have the right to attribute to others the false and pretend that nothing happen here.

    I’ve wrote it, already: no kudos.

  104. Dennis Brown Says:

    I just looked up the Hungarian TM information #005832662. It is for the mark: “DuinO”

    Not exactly the same thing.

  105. codylynx Says:

    I truly believe it is as simple as Dimitri’s English isn’t the best, meaning that the words he used to say what he was meaning should have been different. I was able to interpolate what he really meant, as do i also think all the kickstarter backers were able to also. As well as others from the, dare i say, Arduino community.

    Dimitri just simply made an open I/O to make it easy to connect all these open source hardwares. Such as Arduino, and all Arduino clones. They are all clones.

    It has only made my interest in Arduino and open source Hardware greater, and i have some items from sparkfun i am going to order soon, that is a couple of Arduino’s and other electronics.

  106. Raven Says:

    Why are reasonable observations being censored on this web site? It makes me wonder if Massimo regrets asking the community for its comments now.

    Wikipedia, “Arduin took revenge on those who had been unfaithful to him”

  107. Arduino admirer Says:

    So much heated discussion. Clear indication smartduino it is a good product indeed. Too bad I missed the deadline.

    Don’t give money to the lawyers. Spend the money doing product development!

  108. Kevin Fox Says:

    Massimo, you asked the Arduino for comments, so here’s mine.

    It’s obvious that Dimitri isn’t trying to do you or Arduino harm. Did he over-represent his team’s association with Arduino? Perhaps, though not to the degree that you claim, and your repeated accusations that he’s a liar go over the top.

    While you’ve made it very clear you don’t like the term ‘Smartduino’ this is a slope that Arduino has navigated before, trying to find the happy medium between building an open platform and community of developers and manufacturers and protecting your own intellectual property.

    Regardless of where Smartduino falls on that line it clearly doesn’t fall very far away from it. So again, whether Dimitri is right or wrong he certainly doesn’t deserve the lambasting bordering on libel that you’re dishing on him.

    For someone who has such a leadership role in the Arduino community, your actions today have done a very poor job of promoting it. At the heart of the Arduino movement is the idea that hardware development doesn’t have to be about huge companies that build walls around their IP with lawyers manning the battlements.

    This is how THEY solve their conflicts. This is not how WE solve our conflicts.

    Got issues with how the Smartduino project represents itself? Talk to them. Work with them. Don’t try to whip us into a frenzy of torches and pitchforks because every single person in this community is trying to expand it and move it forward, a sentiment I see throughout these comments, but not in your own words, where I would most expect to see them.

  109. codylynx Says:

    So, NOW i’m spending money for Arduino’s and Arduino compatible hardware due to all the kickstarter Adruino gadgets. Not 5 more years from now… Just sayin.

  110. n3m0 Says:

    Dimitri’s english sucks.
    Doesn’t matter if supporters can or cannot extrapolate what he meant. “What the author meant” is right in the highschool, not in the business field.
    Let’s make a company named smFAnCEBOOrK and take bets how much time it will take until the shit hits the fan.
    It is obvious (looking at the original post), that Team Massime was undertaking some actions to clarify the whole thing (lookin up manufacturer, looking up the person, contating companies worried about the false product, contatcting the Kickstarter). So now Mr. Dmitri instead of crying about ‘it was a conspiracy! they knew it from the beginning!’ should maybe try to settle the thing in civillized and decent manner.
    Cause you know, if I did that facebook thing and they contacted me after two months – my tears over ‘oh you knew it since the beginning’ would just be ridiculous and childish.
    So all in all – if you have a company and your english suxx, hire a translator, they ain’t expensive. If you want to name your product after some other product – obey the fucking guidelines to avoid being sued for IP infringmenet.
    Your faithful maDeIMIeTRI toAneLBIeNO.

  111. codylynx Says:

    @ Kevin Fox. Well said my friend, well said! Thank you

  112. Ekki Cau Says:

    I couldn’t have said it better @Kevin :)

  113. Frank Says:

    Dimitri,

    Simple question: Does the name on the board, “SmARtHOST Arduino(TM)”, violate the permitted trademark use of the term “Arduino(TM)”?

    See http://arduino.cc/en/Main/FAQ for clarification. This clearly states that “Arduino Xxxxxx” is not okay for a product name and they consider this to be trademark infringment.

    If your answer is “Yes” (which it’s pretty clear that it is), then offer to change the name to avoid the trademark dispute and end this.

    If your answer is “No”, I’d be very interested in hearing your rationale about how “SmARtHOST Arduino(TM)” does not violate the permitted trademark use.

  114. codylynx Says:

    ok, so they just need to change the name, right? So, why not get together now, and save face, and save the Arduino Community, by Talking about what it should be named. Here are a few examples off the top of my head.

    Smartduino or MinduinO or Interduino or SmartKit or SmartIO or SmartMaker w/(Arduino-Compatable)

  115. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @n3m0

    No body is crying here! I’m the one that since the very beginning wrote that I was sure Massimo misunderstood the whole things just because he didn’t have the time to read properly the project and to get proper information.

    Then lawyers came out and their docs shown that all this thing started 28 days before. Such a long time, even for the busiest person, to check better before write something about others.

    Since Massimo wrote false information about my person, when the truth is in the pages that he printed about a month ago, then I think it’s clear that the purpose of this post is not the later claimed intent to discuss about Kickstarter but it is a free and useless attack to my very own person.

    My English it sucks, so what? It came from the same brain that created the smARtBUS Open I/O, that’s the only way you can find today in the world to make Arduino communicate with an half dozen of other development tools without touch a single wire or do any soldering.

    982 people understood it, without any problem, and happily supported it.

    @Frank the smARtHOST ARDUINO(TM) is simply wrong and it should be smARtHOST FOR ARDUINO(TM).

    I would like to make clear that we are talking about the picture of a prototype, this is not a product that has been delivered yet and is not in anybody’s hands.

    It’s just the picture of a prototype that can receive thousands of changes, before become a final product. Of course one of these changes will be the proper naming.

    Again, here we are making a huge amount of noise, and accusing us to unfaithful behavior and IP infringement, all based on the picture of a prototype that has never been released as final product, yet.

    This is just helping to forget that Massimo, in his post, wrote totally false information about me and my company.

    Dimitri

  116. Kickstarter Sued for Patent Infringement | Spyglass Legal Says:

    [...] However, like Youtube, they should have a process for resolving IP conflicts. According to this post, currently Kickstarter does not. I predict this will [...]

  117. ferux Says:

    @Vimes

    You didn’t spend much time gathering info, did you? You even got smartduino name wrong. I’ll just quote this pearl of wisdom out of your posts:

    “Arduino are one of the most trusted and popular names in alot of fields from Engineering to Art and from Heavy machinery to home automation. If Arduino say this ARtUINO is a fraudulent and illegal project then I believe them over some guy who doesn’t even seem to know where he lives and has been unable to back alot of his claims up so far.”

    So let’s believe them blindly because of who they are, whatever they may say. Let’s berate the guy despite the fact that he clearly stated where he lived, and that he has been able to back most of his claims so far. This is not the way a critical thinker should be approaching ANY issue, and I used to think the open hardware community to be better than the average on this matter. But apparently the “brand” weighs in more than ideas here as well.

    Then I look at the date in that document and I feel a bitter aftertaste in my mouth. I didn’t know what to think after reading this blogpost, now I am with smartduino (or better, against your position, massimo) in this battle.

  118. codylynx Says:

    All that over a typo on an image…. Bet he wishes he’d have called first… lmao!

  119. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @ferux,

    this is not a battle. Not for us at least. As I’ve wrote many times, is just a misunderstanding.

    Of course, since it been clear that Team Arduino is monitoring this from the very first day, it sound strange that Massimo wrote so false things against me.

    They called the lawyers but we didn’t, and we will not do. When I’ve received the e-mail from the CEO of the Italian company part of the project Arduino, with the letter from the law firm in attachment, I’ve just wrote to them to cool down and calm the lawyers, because we will not spend one cent and one minute in a legal dispute with them.

    We are here to put our brains and hour hands to work for the benefit of the Open Source Community and not to let lawyers get fat. If what their are looking for is a cut of our Kickstarter funds, say it clearly and not spreading crap over my name.

    I’ve tried many times to make these things become just a funny joke to talk about but, it looks like we have to take it seriously, at least to get back the honor on our name.

    Beside this, we should think about the benefit of our project for the community and not the missing word “FOR” on a picture taken to a prototype.

    Dimitri

  120. n3m0 Says:

    >My English it sucks, so what? It came from the same brain that created the smARtBUS Open I/O, that’s the only way you can find today in the world to make Arduino communicate with an half dozen of other development tools without touch a single wire or do any soldering.
    982 people understood it, without any problem, and happily supported it.

    Great. Really. I am sure everyone who needs it will appreciate your input and your hard work. That does not mean however that you should be treated lightly when it comes to dubious (at best) practices or possbily malicious (at worst) intent.

    >No body is crying here! I’m the one that since the very beginning wrote that I was sure Massimo misunderstood the whole things just because he didn’t have the time to read properly the project and to get proper information.

    Yes, you are. About 28 days that are, let’s be honest, meaningless here.

    >Then lawyers came out and their docs shown that all this thing started 28 days before. Such a long time, even for the busiest person, to check better before write something about others.

    If I understood correctly (please correct me if I’m wrong), this started JUST AFTER you released your kicsktarter. Then it took 28 days for Mr. Massimo to write the blogpost. And again, if I’m understanding this correctly – during these 28 days Mr. Massimo was contacting Kickstarter, checking your dubious claims (those about “manufacturing”) and doing other things that were most probably supposed to be a background check in order NOT to throw a baseless accusations. And now you are complaining about those 28 days.

    Let’s be for a minute adults here. Even if it took one year from noticing the name thing to issuing the post, it doesn’t matter at all – no it does not. Mr. Massimo could have been busy, could have been fighting cancer or could have gone to Africa fight huner, whatever. It does not change A BIT the fact, that your actions are highly suspicious or dubious from both moral as well as legal point of view. Which is what you’re dealing with now.

    Trying to shift the center of weight from your actions to some meaningless delay of actions of Mr. Massimo is worth condemnation.

    >Since Massimo wrote false information about my person, when the truth is in the pages that he printed about a month ago, then I think it’s clear that the purpose of this post is not the later claimed intent to discuss about Kickstarter but it is a free and useless attack to my very own person.

    What false information? Here:
    http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/manufacturer?q=manufacturer
    If those 2 people were not a company – you don’t have the right to call it ‘manufacturing arduino’. It is misleading, and I’d call it a blatant lie.

    >For years we manufactured the ARDUINO in Italy. Now we created a new Open System: modular, scalable, the world’s cheapest and smallest!

    Apart from the manufacturing thing mentioned above, you imply that the whole thing is Italian based. And then Mr. Massimo writes, that ‘it seems’. So where are the lies?

    The only thing I cannot verify is the claim about dubious forum activity, so I guess if we wanted to know we’d have to ask some italian speaking person to get those for us.

    >My English it sucks, so what?

    So that if you’re trying to do business worldwide, you better make it not suck in order to avoid situations like this or any other involving incorrect statements.

    I guess 982 people appreciated the work you put into your project. But if you REALLY need such dubious practices to sell it, I guess they were wrong. After all if it was really good, you wouldn’t need to use such dirty tricks.

  121. Raven Says:

    N3M0, it does not matter what you believe or say. Dimitri says the final product will fix the TM naming issue and you can sleep tight knowing that you’ve contributed nothing but chaff to the actual problem. But I do hope you found your public dumps cathartic.

  122. Dimitri Albino Says:

    @ n3m0

    I copy and paste from Massimo’s blog post:

    ” the person who launched the kickstarter, who claims to be living in Italy (Mr. Dimitri Albino)”

    Then I report what you wrote:

    “And then Mr. Massimo writes, that ‘it seems’. So where are the lies?”

    He dind’t wriute that “id seems”, he wrote that I claim. And this is not true. If you spend your time reading all the materials on Kickstarter, including the project’s page, the updates, the comments, the bio and so on it is very clear what I always claim. So yes, it is a lie what Massimo wrote and, unfortunately, is not the fruit of the rush but he had a month of time to think about this.

    When I say that our company did the work for the factory that made the Arduino and we have the invoices for this, I’m talking about companies and so your link to the dictionary is just the confirmation of this.

    Again, you talk about “dubious practices” but there is nothing dubious in all what we did, doing and will do. The doubts came from the misleading false information that Massimo posted.

    I can understand that, like many others, you are trying to move the topic far away from the original problem, to protect the one you like.

    We knew since the beginning that the common people will think we are the bad, after read a post full of false information.

    I just hope that you read all the materials, with attention, before express your opinions.

    Dimitri

  123. n3m0 Says:

    I’ve contributed certainly more than you, so why don’t you make yourself something to drink?

  124. Raven Says:

    The l33t n3m0 is too busy sending crapola links which I wouldn’t bother going to just based on his rants. But I am sure he’s having a hardy, lonely, laugh. Good for you n3m0.

  125. Ekki Cau Says:

    n3m0… sorry to say this but you’re full of crap and not helping at all…

  126. thorbear Says:

    Wow, what a charming little Appleduino fanboi you are, n3m0.
    Or are you in reality one of the actual Appleduino guys, here to keep up the lies and slander?

  127. n3m0 Says:

    >When I say that our company did the work for the factory that made the Arduino and we have the invoices for this, I’m talking about companies and so your link to the dictionary is just the confirmation of this.

    Cleaning lady that was cleaning the factory has also invoices, so she also was a manufacturer of Arduino. Now I know your intent is malicious.

    So NO, the link is NOT a confirmation of this. If you are a subcontractor for manufacturer that does not make you a manufacturer. Out of curiosity: are those invoices issued by Team Arduino?

    >He dind’t wriute that “id seems”, he wrote that I claim. And this is not true. If you spend your time reading all the materials on Kickstarter, including the project’s page, the updates, the comments, the bio and so on it is very clear what I always claim. So yes, it is a lie what Massimo wrote and, unfortunately, is not the fruit of the rush but he had a month of time to think about this.

    Oh yes he did:

    >Based on the current available information, it seems that the company that owns the domain (Aldi Technology) doesn’t exist and the person who launched the kickstarter, who claims to be living in Italy (Mr. Dimitri Albino), actually moved to china years ago.

    Keywords here: “based on current available information”
    and “it seems”.
    Info about the project: “A project in Romano Canavese, Italy by Dimitri Albino”

    Yes, it **seems** you’re in Italy. And he never stated that as a fact.

    Granted, you never said anywhere “I live in Italy”. But from what you wrote it seemd you claimed so.

    >Again, you talk about “dubious practices” but there is nothing dubious in all what we did, doing and will do. The doubts came from the misleading false information that Massimo posted.

    That is your opinion and you have the right to be wrong. Team Arduino and their lawyers have different opinion, based also on the trademark guidelines that you obviously neglected. And yes, it is dubious – one can doubt whether you infringe their trademark rights or not, hence it is dubious.

    >I can understand that, like many others, you are trying to move the topic far away from the original problem, to protect the one you like.

    I don’t particularly like any of you. I happen to notice, that both the name of the product, and trying to ride on somebyd’s else back is not nice. Lightly speaking.

    >We knew since the beginning that the common people will think we are the bad, after read a post full of false information.

    Again – I don’t see ‘false’ information there. It says you say you manufactured arduino and surprise surprise, you say you manufactured arduino. It says you named your product against their guidelines and surprise surprise – you did. Mr. Massimo never stated it as a fact that you claim, he stated that by his current knowledge it seems you claim so. Other than that we have no confirmation of those supposed dubious actions of yours so that is in suspension.

    That is one of the reasons for which a good English skills are a must. So that you don’t try to accuse somebody of something he didn’t do.

    >I just hope that you read all the materials, with attention, before express your opinions.

    I read, saw your kickstarter page, homepage and even googled a bit. Enough to know that Mr. Massimo is right about suspicious naming of your product and claims about manufacturing parts.

  128. n3m0 Says:

    Poor little raven got a butthurt after being treated as deserved – as a troll? LOL, have some of that drink again.

    @Ekki cau: maybe if you had anything substantial to say then somebody might have taken what you say as something more than farts of Raven. Oh, sorry to say that.

  129. Ekki Cau Says:

    Whoa, not even I got that moody in the whole day of posting , guess I’ll go back to my popcorn again XD

  130. John Says:

    Who cares what you did. You have high ego don’t you? And why should kickstart be beld accountble? If you bave trademark issue let the court know. No company should modify or remove content unless proper authority steps in.

  131. n3m0 Says:

    You could’ve get that idea before you opened your mouth… XD

  132. Philosofuino Says:

    Go create great products that we all love and please stop this!

  133. Ekki Cau Says:

    Ummm n3m0, I been posting my thoughs all day, if you scroll up you will see, but basically I have already said all that I needed to say, but you’re just flamming up the post again with your comments, it would had been more helpfull if you just readed all the comments and throw our your opinions, because most of what you posted was already vented thru out the day

  134. n3m0 Says:

    >I been posting my thoughs all day, if you scroll up you will see, but basically I have already said all that I needed to say, but you’re just flamming up the post again with your comments, it would had been more helpfull if you just readed all the comments and throw our your opinions, because most of what you posted was already vented thru out the day

    I did read the thread, I did read your comments and I didn’t agree with them.
    I didn’t refuse you your right to comment as you are trying to do now with me now.
    And certainly I didn’t come out like a dick and said “you’re full of shit”. Which you did.
    I commented on something that was not underlined proprerly – 28 days do not matter. As far as I know this is internet so I have the right to do so and you are in no position to decide whether I should/can or not. So having in mind your dickish attitude – just like Raven, have some drink as well. EOT with such a vulgar outskirt if intellect as you.

  135. Ekki Cau Says:

    Congratulations, you just won the internetz

    And correct you have the right to say your thoughts, but the way you said them pissed me off, you where the dick first so I think you deserved that

  136. Kickstarter incurs the wrath of Arduino creator Says:

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  137. smARtDUINO Open System Provides a Low Cost Modular Arduino Platform | CNXSoft – Embedded Software Development Says:

    [...] a new platform design by the former ARDUINO’s manufacturer (Update: This claim appears to be incorrect and a lie) composed of several compact modules and is a fully funded project on Kickstarter (Less than 3 days [...]

  138. Arduino Founder Calls Out Startup, Kickstarter in Trademark Dispute » b.c.s. Says:

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  139. smARtDUINO has PR Problems | Hacker Bee Says:

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  140. Links 29/11/2012: Dell Sells GNU/Linux Gear at Lower Cost Than Windows, Fedora 18 Reaches Beta | Techrights Says:

    [...] Kickstarter, Trademarks and Lies Just a few clarifications: Arduino is not suing anybody. We never intended to do that in the slightest. We love Kickstarter and , as I said in the post, we think they are important to Makers. We are now in contact with Kickstarter to make sure that in the future the communication between us are more direct and clear. Our manufacturing partner in Italy has issues with some statements made in the Kickstarter campaign and they are getting in touch directly with the project creator to clear the situation. [...]

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